tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5749059681475538860.post5746174816606504819..comments2008-06-15T02:37:27.634-04:00Jennifernoreply@blogger.comBlogger15125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5749059681475538860.post-5814092645359733542008-06-15T02:37:00.000-04:002008-06-15T02:37:00.000-04:00P.S.: Christopher, take it from a Taoist. You think too much.Gary B. Fitzgeraldhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17919492445467135425noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5749059681475538860.post-22549511808331766802008-06-15T01:28:00.000-04:002008-06-15T01:28:00.000-04:00"By Jove, I think (s)he's got it!"<BR/><BR/>It's called poetry.<BR/><BR/>Thank you, Christopher.<BR/><BR/>(Now buy the books, for God's sake!)<BR/><BR/>:-)Gary B. Fitzgeraldhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17919492445467135425noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5749059681475538860.post-27563501006674592292008-06-14T20:06:00.000-04:002008-06-14T20:06:00.000-04:00Not a touch on Gary's original. <BR/><BR/><I>"Good poets learn.<BR/><BR/>Great poets forget everything they learned."</I><BR/><BR/>Of course it's partly a result of the shock in the context, but it's also the eccentricity of the grammar. Both the ear and the mind's assumptions are ready for the present perfect, "have learned," after the usual sort of forgetting as cast in the present tense. The past simple isolates everything that has been forgotten. It creates a total disjunct, and invokes a whole universe of endless present in the particular way poets "forget." <BR/><BR/>The present perfect is the tense that makes the past operative, with the past simple it ceases to exist.<BR/><BR/>C.Christopher Woodmanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03122544949410411452noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5749059681475538860.post-31007583648521581862008-06-14T10:32:00.000-04:002008-06-14T10:32:00.000-04:00Gary,<BR/><BR/>I like it.<BR/><BR/>Maybe you could polish it up into:<BR/><BR/>Good poets remember.<BR/>Great poets forget.<BR/><BR/>or<BR/><BR/>Good poets learn to remember.<BR/>Great poets learn to forget.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5749059681475538860.post-16223961129948893142008-06-11T15:14:00.000-04:002008-06-11T15:14:00.000-04:00To my knowledge. God only knows what's floating around in the subconscious sea. :-)Gary B. Fitzgeraldhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17919492445467135425noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5749059681475538860.post-23858493522227044732008-06-11T15:13:00.000-04:002008-06-11T15:13:00.000-04:00Christopher,<BR/><BR/>I imagine one could still have correspondences with poets and editors today. It depends on where you look. Or, what kind of letter you write. I'm sure I could get a letter from Alice Quinn, not if I sent my poems to the New Yorker, but if I wrote her a letter saying how much I admired her book on Elizabeth Bishop. Or, if you are doing research, or writing an article with a positive angle, I'm sure a lot of doors would open. Of course, you wouldn't find a Samuel Johnson or a Goethe; you'd find someone no smarter or learned than yourself. Wouldn't that be a drag.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5749059681475538860.post-71595644863804083812008-06-11T15:02:00.000-04:002008-06-11T15:02:00.000-04:00"Good poets learn.<BR/><BR/>Great poets forget everything they learned."<BR/><BR/>Gary, that's pretty good. Is that yours?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5749059681475538860.post-84547994158020548542008-06-11T08:18:00.000-04:002008-06-11T08:18:00.000-04:00I like what you say, Gary, and I know it should give me hope. "Study your history," you encourage me at the end, "most who broke the idol of precedent, who followed the light of their own lamp, came in from the woods."<BR/><BR/>But came in where? You're talking about poets who have done the long, hard work both on the craft and themselves, and have found their own voices. I want to know what do they do next, where do they settle down and with whom do they sup?<BR/><BR/>There's an essential ingredient to all this which is so close to us we hardly see it: we contemporary poets are bedevilled by such unrealistically high expectations--we still imagine there's an audience. The reality is that never in the whole history of poetry has so much been promised to so many poets, yet in reality so little been ready. Before it was easier, even in the early 90s when I first started publishing. I got hand-written notes from Theodore Weiss, whole letters from the likes of James Laughlin and Alice Quinn on old, mechanical typewriters that needed ribbons, and real engagement from Joseph Parisi and a good scolding from Marilyn Hacker. All that's impossible now, not because the editors aren't that good anymore but because too many poets have the same expectations. And why shouldn't they, after all, insiders or outsiders they're still poets and as such long to be read and even to get rejected with good feedback's not too bad.<BR/><BR/>Now that's just a fantasy.<BR/><BR/>Because those days are over in America, and I guess pretty much forever. Once you come in from the woods fully initiated in the mysteries of life, love and art, even as a poet, what's offered is just a playdate!<BR/><BR/>ChristopherChristopher Woodmanwww.homprang.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5749059681475538860.post-48114209702826496732008-06-10T14:43:00.000-04:002008-06-10T14:43:00.000-04:00Good poets learn.<BR/><BR/>Great poets forget everything they learned.Gary B. Fitzgeraldhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17919492445467135425noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5749059681475538860.post-74181987013247537852008-06-10T14:25:00.001-04:002008-06-10T14:25:00.001-04:00"Intellectual inbreeding results only in endless reference and repetition of predecessors until one fades in their shadow. Influence by contemporary friends and heroes further dims the flame of independent insight and originality."<BR/><BR/>Gary, well said!<BR/><BR/>But isn't true that 'good poets imitate, great poets steal?'Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5749059681475538860.post-3998717473996061222008-06-10T14:25:00.000-04:002008-06-10T14:25:00.000-04:00Poets! Jeez...like herding cats.Gary B. Fitzgeraldhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17919492445467135425noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5749059681475538860.post-25254539523877896342008-06-10T14:06:00.000-04:002008-06-10T14:06:00.000-04:00I love lobster bisque and I am going to wait here until I get some.<BR/><BR/>Monday LoveAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5749059681475538860.post-10521073118571172592008-06-10T10:48:00.000-04:002008-06-10T10:48:00.000-04:00Gary, here's to the woods!<BR/><BR/>Alan, will you be in charge of beer?<BR/><BR/>Best,<BR/>MattMatthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01673989290048344335noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5749059681475538860.post-49584970870595081132008-06-09T21:43:00.000-04:002008-06-09T21:43:00.000-04:00I remember once when I was a boy and the snobby rich kids wouldn’t let us into their party. They were rude and laughed at us, told us to go away. So we left. But we didn’t hang around in the front yard waiting for a dollop of lobster bisque. We went out and bought some wine and had a bigger, better party in the woods.<BR/><BR/>I suppose you could call me the ‘outsider’s’ outsider, but I realized long ago that Academia and Business, alone or combined, are counterproductive to good poetry. There is no way one can be part of any current system or ‘establishment’ and produce purely original poetry. I’m not saying that a poet should be ignorant or untrained, just that once you have learned the basics you must fly on your own. Intellectual inbreeding results only in endless reference and repetition of predecessors until one fades in their shadow. Influence by contemporary friends and heroes further dims the flame of independent insight and originality.<BR/><BR/>Study your history. Most who broke the idol of precedent, who followed the light of their own lamp, came in from the woods.Gary B. Fitzgeraldhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17919492445467135425noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5749059681475538860.post-4495637334374080902008-06-09T19:43:00.000-04:002008-06-09T19:43:00.000-04:00I've just made one quick pass through this essay and can't find a single point of disagreement. I believe that poets.net is the successor not only to foetry.com, but also to the failures of the forums at poets.org and pw.org. <BR/><BR/>Like Matt, I'm pretty disillusioned with po-biz -- not ready to say the foets have won, but not very interested in reading the dreck they keep churning out on behalf of and for each other.<BR/><BR/>Jennifer's got an amazing site going here and I admire what she's started. I hope others will contribute their skills, content, and criticisms to make it the place on the web that turns po-biz around.Alan Cordlehttp://alan.cordle.myopenid.com/noreply@blogger.com