tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5749059681475538860.post3563929011334274215..comments2023-06-01T12:02:03.935-04:00Comments on Poets.net: ON BUTTERFLIES, BROTHELS and, Oh Yes, POETRYUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger7125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5749059681475538860.post-17047232885461728272008-05-30T20:30:00.000-04:002008-05-30T20:30:00.000-04:00Dear Anonymous,I'm not quite with you on this one....Dear Anonymous,<BR/>I'm not quite with you on this one. What PM about my wife are you talking about, as there are several? Believe it or not there are also several that have gone through deletions, and one has even been posted, then deleted, then reposted, then yet again deleted--by the Moderators at Poets.org ("On Complaints on the Forum" Wed May 21, 2008 10:32 am)! <BR/><BR/>Is that the one you're referring too?<BR/><BR/>Also on Jorie Graham, it just happened that she was quite a hot topic at the time I was active on Poets.org, just having published a new book called <I>Sea Change</I> and at the same time just having been featured on The Academy of American Poets homepage including an interview with her that was written by her own blessed self. <BR/><BR/>All the ambiguities involved in all those current stories brought her into the discussion, not some special interest of my own.<BR/><BR/>ChristopherAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5749059681475538860.post-47246616561440425282008-05-30T01:55:00.000-04:002008-05-30T01:55:00.000-04:00I have read that pm in the past. (The one about yo...I have read that pm in the past. (The one about your wife?) I just went there and noticed it was deleted.<BR/><BR/>Ok, I understand the personal grievance, but your articles go on to name others like Jorie Graham. So it sounds like you are playing ball somewhere bigger than your own backyard. Is this about a few indivuals or about the poetry business in general?I'm not trying to dismiss what you are saying either. I have no side in this issue. But if I didn't care I wouldn't be writing.<BR/><BR/>You are more connected to this than I. I haven't entered any contests and I apologize if I'm coming off a bit cold.<BR/><BR/>My question is how does this conflict become resolved? If there are bad guys manipulating the system do we remove the bad guys or change the system?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5749059681475538860.post-86818412424665112562008-05-30T01:21:00.000-04:002008-05-30T01:21:00.000-04:00Thanks, Jepson.Thanks, Jepson.Jenniferhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02948542374699674802noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5749059681475538860.post-70787731643234425002008-05-30T01:05:00.000-04:002008-05-30T01:05:00.000-04:00Well...I'm not sure what use my comments would ser...Well...I'm not sure what use my comments would serve as a post, but you have my permission.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5749059681475538860.post-11487693492399884032008-05-30T01:03:00.000-04:002008-05-30T01:03:00.000-04:00Dear Jepson,Yes, a very fair and probing response ...Dear Jepson,<BR/>Yes, a very fair and probing response to what has been a long, confusing and certainly exhausting confrontation, both with Pw.org and Poets.org--with precisely the same results at both.<BR/><BR/>I never libeled anyone on either, you see. I merely posted a letter by the well-known critic, Joan Houlihan, that had been published by her in P&W Magazine last November in which she asserted that the two, meticulously documented scams I had recently been caught up in weren't really scams at all. That was quite a statement for me to stomach, particularly as I had submitted 12 full length book manuscripts to Bin Ramke over the years and 8 to Jeffrey Levine, yet they still tricked me!<BR/><BR/>On Poets.org I merely posted, and just once, the reply to Joan Houlihan I had submitted to the editors of P&W Magazine myself. That's all, yet I was banned 8 minutes later.<BR/><BR/>The second time I merely observed that Joan Houlihan and Jeffrey Levine might like to join the discussion. I know for a fact that Joan Houlihan does follow these discussions very closely, and indeed has entered them before, and specifically on Jeffrey Levine's behalf, so what I suggested was not at all out of the realm of possibility, or even provocative. <BR/><BR/>I was banned the second time for suggesting that participation, that's all.<BR/><BR/>As to the famous PM, that accusation has been thoroughly examined and dismissed on the "Complaints on the Forum" thread itself. <BR/><BR/>Another, much earlier PM of mine, was also posted by the poets.org Moderator 'sbunch.' The thread is locked now but you can go and check out that second PM for yourself, and make up your own mind about it. You will find it on p. 6, posted by sbunch, Wed May 21, 2008 10:32 am.<BR/><BR/>I'm repeating myself by saying all this yet again, I know, but I will keep on saying it until it's finally acknowledged that I am being banned because I will not let Joan Houlihan get away with white-washing Bin Ramke or Jeffrey Levine just to protect her own business interests. It's a tiny case in itself, but it's got well-defined handles, you see, and most shadowy tendencies like that don't have handles, and are therefore very easy to dismiss. But you simply can't dismiss what I'm saying because it's true, and so well-documented--all you can do is ban me so I won't say it, and that is precisely what has been happening at the very heart of the poetry establishment in the last two months. Baseless banning of lowly individuals to protect well-placed and well-connected cronies. <B>In poetry!!!!!!!!!!!</B><BR/><BR/>All the best to you, Christopher WoodmanAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5749059681475538860.post-61179688762827080612008-05-29T23:13:00.000-04:002008-05-29T23:13:00.000-04:00Jepson,Thank you for your thought-provoking commen...Jepson,<BR/><BR/>Thank you for your thought-provoking comments.<BR/><BR/>May I elevate your comment to a post?<BR/><BR/>If not, it's okay.<BR/><BR/>Best,<BR/><BR/>Jennifer<BR/>adminJenniferhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02948542374699674802noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5749059681475538860.post-6557045057448591592008-05-29T23:03:00.000-04:002008-05-29T23:03:00.000-04:00Well, I have no reason to go by Anonymous. I go b...Well, I have no reason to go by Anonymous. I go by Jepson on poets.org. I am new to the site. Sadly, I joined poets.org shortly after your departure. I have enjoyed my time so far there. The moderators have been very helpful and friendly with me so far.<BR/><BR/>I respond to you as a gentleman representing nobody but himself. I have no sides in this argument. I’m here out of my own personal interest.<BR/><BR/>Would it be fair to say that the discussion you bring to the table involves the ethical and business reputations of some well known individuals? If I owned a forum I would be wary to allow personal attacks to continue. A site is not obligated to give any individual a platform for public defamation, especially at the expense of the organization’s own reputation, whether it is credible or not. You’ve listed names and have drawn some very convincing dots, but do you believe it is a ‘me vs them’ fight going on? Maybe the site wishes to remain neutral for now. It would be impossible to remain neutral when a member is ‘naming names’ while calling the reputation of American poetry into question. The situation might’ve been that you flew a little too close to the sun. The actions of the AAP might not have been to cover up and protect a couple of individuals, but an attempt to keep their own integrity intact.<BR/><BR/>Of course, all of that is speculative. I don’t know the specifics surrounding your banning. The best I could gather from the threads is that it dealt with a PM behind the scenes. However, all of this becomes a distraction from this message that you have been campaigning.<BR/><BR/>Let’s assume for the sake of argument that you are accurate in your discussion. There is corruption in poetry from the very top. A massive cover up operation has been taking place, because they don’t want the truth out. The question now is this: What do we do about it? Should we aspiring writers grab our pitchforks and torches and riot outside the gates, demanding the heads of those leaders responsible? Should the ‘who’s who’ in today’s poetry create a committee to investigate the matter internally? Should we do away with poetry contests? What direction should we move in? What is your solution to the problem?<BR/><BR/>Eliminating poetry contests won’t solve the issue that dominates in almost every field of entertainment and politics: It’s not what you do, but who you know. People are people both good and bad. There will always be an ‘in’ circle. Will taking down the reputation of a few individuals save poetry? <BR/><BR/>Will it hurt it?<BR/><BR/>If I submitted a manuscript to a contest for publication and was rejected then began hearing about ‘corruption’ that would make me wonder. Did my manuscript get turned down because I wasn’t sleeping with the judge, or was it really crap anyways? It would be easier to accept the first scenario. I’m not implying you in this situation, but a hypothetical “me” instead. Regardless, the fact is that hardly anybody in America is reading poetry today. They aren’t turning it down because of conspiracy theories either. There aren’t many outlets of poetry publication anymore. What will fill that void if we tear down what’s left? Will it get people reading again?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com